Playing for 3rd place?

[DblT81]

In a discussion on the Connecticut women's basketball message board, this Husky fan believes all teams other than Tennessee and Connecticut are playing for third place.
http://the-boneyard.com/wbb.pl?read=6210

Sorry, It will always be Uconn and Tennessee. Yes, Notre Dame just won a national championship, but can they come this year and contend? NO. Tennessee loaded up on recruits last year, and, before it is done this year Uconn could land the best recruiting class of all time. I hate to say this, but all the top players in the classes of 2003 and 2004 all love the big two.

I know, this is just one fan beating his chest and proclaiming superiority. Does he have an argument?

ARE all the top recruits listing those 2 schools as their favorites? or..... Are those players being graded by the recruiting gurus as the top recruits because they are being recruited by those 2 schools?

Can the tremendous coaching talent in the Big 12 make a difference?

[CyRox98]

It sounds to me like this is a typical arrogant UCONN fan. Will UCONN and Tennessee always be towards the top? Probably. As long as they have their coaches, they will produce wins. But not all successes last forever. Stanford used to be the cream of the crop and they have spent several years trying to regain their former prominence, even WITH the same coach.

Notre Dame proved this year that UCONN is very beatable despite all the talent Geno rounds up every year. Iowa State proved it in '99 in Cincinnati.

I don't believe that just because a player is not rated among the best in the nation by various publications, they are somehow not a great player. Fennelly mostly goes after kids who fit the program and are not necessarily drawing attention from a lot of other schools. It has worked so far for ISU. Would I like to see more "names" come to Iowa State? Sure, I'd be stupid to say 'no.' But that doesn't always guarantee a good team or a winner.

[This message has been edited by CyRox98 (edited 08-29-2001).]

[carolann]

A few of the UConn fans are just plain silly. They seem to forget that UConn won its first national championship in 1995 and did so w/o the Kentucky Derby thoroughbreds they can recruit today. The continuing dynasty of Tennessee is truly amazing. Tenn has the top ranked recruiting class coming in this fall and looks set to sign another top 3 class. Still, Summit will retire some day just as John Wooden did. Other schools besides UConn and Tenn are recruiting well. Stanford and Duke with their combination of basketball success, academic reputation, and location are haveing tremendous recruiting success. I see N Carolina stockpiling some serious talent. Georgia is attracting a lot of top players.

A lot can happen between now and 2003/2004. The list of top players will change & players will change their minds.

The Big 12 will break through to the final four soon!

[schooner2]

Players play a big role, but come on....after seeing how Tennessee lost to Xavier there is just no way you can say oh Tenn. and UConn again have all this great talent. It only takes one game to knock them off in the NCAA tourney. OU, ISU, and Tech all have enough talent to knock off UConn or Tenn. on a given night. Plain and simple.

[DblT81]

Exactly!

I agree with all. If this bozo was right, Tech, North Carolina, Purdue and Notre Dame would never have won a NC.

Injuries and coaching are the great equalizers.

Plus I think there is more top talent now than 10 or even 5 years ago. Sure, there will continue to be those superstars. But which recruiting service would have ranked Jackie Stiles or Ruth Riley the best players 5 years ago?

I wish I could tell those great HS players that if they want their ego stroked, go to Tenn, Conn or Duke and the pundits will proclaim them the best. If they want to learn the game from the best coaches and play in front of more fans than anywhere else in the nation, play in the Big 12. Wherever they go, the opportunity to play for a National Champion will come from what they accomplish with their teammates and not who looks good on paper. There are many more opportunities to accomplish that goal than just those 2 teams.

Whew! Now that I have vented, I feel much better!

[SMSuperFAN]

But which recruiting service would have ranked Jackie Stiles or Ruth Riley the best players 5 years ago?

Riley came out of nowhere, but Jackie WAS in the top 5 in almost all of the prospect lists coming out of HS. I mean the girl was averaging almost 50 points a game...Geno wanted her bad, and didn't get her. That is a perfect example of the Goliaths (UConn and UT) not getting a top recruit, although almost always now they get everyone they want. I think the poster at the Boneyard has a point though......I was thinking that maybe everyone isn't fighting for 3rd place in the NCAA tourney (like he is saying...other people DO win the title), but everyone else IS fighting for 3rd place in the "hype-media" race. When the media outlets cover womens bball, its UConn and Tennessee first, everyone else next. So any team who is having a great year is acknowledged, but they are seen as behind the Huskies and LVs every year until those 2 are out of the tournament.

[swok34]

but the problem now with players electing to go to UConn and Tennessee is.......transferring due to the lack of playing time.
Like Kennitra Johnson transferred to Purdue this summer from Connecticut. Seems I read that more women than men transfer "back" close to home due to "homesick".

I'm most impressed with Duke's recruiting success, they seem to land some highly rated players lately. Purdue is on a lot of lists. Sounds like a team getting to the "final four" highly influences these highly rated recruits. Stanford really impresses me with their recruiting, and their championships were back in '90 & '92. Oklahoma has yet to receive a ranking for their recruiting and are a back to back Sweet Sixteen team.

I read an excerpt out of the current SI for women....they say Connecticut to win it all, the team to watch for Oklahoma and they also mention Vanderbilt.

Given the last four years success of teams other than Tennessee and Connecticut, meaning neither have one back to back

1998 Tennessee -- 6th time, also in 1996, 1997
1999 Purdue -- 1st ever
2000 Connecticut -- 2nd ever, also in 1995
2001 Notre Dame -- 1st ever

sure hope parity is here, I believe it is, with runnerups like Duke, Purdue, Louisiana Tech.

The best thing to be said about it all:
Only 5 get to be on the court. Really think players are starting to look at that and think about that.

[schooner2]

Well, I guess what you can say, is UCONN and Tennessee have a chance to win it all every single year. How many other programs can say that? Even Purdue and Duke have to reload and fall back a bit before making another charge.

But, then the great thing about collegiate basketball is the format of the NCAA Tourney. Makes it very easy to knock off a Goliath cuz all you need is one great game against them.

[Bevo]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DblT81:

I wish I could tell those great HS players that if they want their ego stroked, go to Tenn, Conn or Duke and the pundits will proclaim them the best. If they want to learn the game from the best coaches and play in front of more fans than anywhere else in the nation, play in the Big 12.

Well said!

[CyFanRick]

Let Tennessee and UCONN have all the hype. All it takes is one of the Big 12 Teams to play a decent game against them in the tournament. Any team can be beaten by a team wanting it a little more. Sometimes the "Big" teams get a little arrogant and really let down in the "must win" games. The Big 12 teams play hard night after night in an effort to prove their rightful places at the top.
Go BIG 12.
http://hoopscoop.net/ubb/isu.gif

[DblT81]

SMS-good point-maybe it really is only the media hype contest that they are winning. But you've got to admit it makes it easier for them to recruit and harder for the have-nots.

Rick-I agree the B12 teams have a tougher schedule every game. But is that to their detriment? Here is a response I posted on another board regarding the charge that the B12 is not a tough conference because they have NEVER had a final four team since the conference was formed.

In fact, the B12 had a better winning % (than the other conferences). The conference winning % avg. shows that the Big East was not the toughest conference last year even if they had 3 of the best teams in the nation. The ACC, B12 and SEC all had winning % greater than .750, then there is a drop to the Big 10 with a winning % of .639. Vanderbilt is the ONLY team from the top 3 conferences (in winning %) to make it to the Elite 8. Purdue, Washington, La Tech, ND, Connecticut, Xavier and SMS came from conferences which had fewer top teams and more bottom dwellers.

Could a contributing factor to the early exit in the NCAA tourny for Tennessee, Georgia, Duke, Oklahoma, Iowa State and Texas Tech be tired legs and minds from playing a very tough conference schedule in the 3 top conferences? Vanderbilt was 21-9 overall and 8-6 in the SEC. Perhaps they didn't put all their marbles into the conference season and had something left in the bag to make it to the Elite 8.

Well, that kind of takes this discussion off topic. But it is another issue worth discussing.

Dang it folks, the Big 12 needs a team in the finals!

[ChipperF1]

<<the Big 12 needs a team in the finals!>>

And this year, the Big 12 will get at least one in. But, anyone who says that the Big 12 isn't a good conference because of the lack of a Final Four team is forgetting one little thing. The conference is only 6 years old. To say that the Big 12 should be a champion fresh out the box or its zero in some way forgets some thing about the way things have run in womens college basketball.

Since 1982...Only Louisiana Tech, Southern California, Old Dominion, Texas, Stanford, Texas Tech, North Carolina, UConn and Tennessee have won NCAA Division 1 national championships.
So really, no one conference has any real "traditional" dominance of championships, save maybe the SEC (and they are built on Tennessee's 6 national championships and a ton of Final Four appearances)

Give the sport another 20 years then you can start making the arguments in ernest.

The Big 12 made a lot of great strides last year, and will continue to do so. There's a lot of talent of this league, granted the "Blue Chip Scouting Reports" miss it, but then again you take those reports with a grain anyway.
What I like about the successful teams in the Big 12 is that they are well prepared, well coached, and the players get better each year. When I see Marsha Sharp's young kids playing ahead of the curve, that's coaching. When I see Bill Fennelly's team, not the most athletic team out there, but they beat a lot of teams on execution, heart and smarts. That's coaching.
When I saw what Baylor and Oklahoma did last year, that's coaching.
What many fans, quite a few come from Storrs and Knoxville although they do live in Ames and Norman, and Boulder and many points far and near need to realize is that a National Championship is VERY HARD TO WIN!

Pat Summitt has 6 of them, but it her 7 Final Four trips in the NCAA and the AIAW to win that first one. UConn LOST the semifinal in their first Final Four appearance, and its took them 4 years to get a second chance at the Final Four.
Granted they are getting the "Super Star Recruits", but it is still a team game. If those 5 "stars" can't play together, they are no good (just ask Georgia). You still have to get them to jel together to make it work (yes, Andy Landers, I'm talking to you).

Lets not get so worried about scrambling after the "High School Blue Chip By Golly Shazam Top 100" that you lose sight of the simple fact that once practices start, the only kids that can help you are the kids who are at that practice. So many programs try to recruit a winner, but don't put enough energy toward the next step to build a winner. You can tell those programs a mile away, and by the following phrase every year.

"Just wait until the talent gets here."
(As a Nebraska fan, I heard this silly phrase for the last three seasons.)

The Big 12's contenders are on the right track, and one or maybe two of them will get to San Antonio.

--Chipper http://hoopscoop.net/ubb/smile.gif
http://hoopscoop.net/ubb/nu.gif The Sanderfraud Session of Surrender
Starting November 16th

[TrueTechFan]

I will say this one of our big 12 members will get in the the Final Four. So with maybe if they spread us around a little we could more into the final four than just one.

So go Big 12 show who is the best conference out there!!!!!!!!!!!

------------------
Fight for the honor of wearing the Scarlet and black

[This message has been edited by TrueTechFan (edited 09-04-2001).]

[techcowboy]

I just hope all the good teams in the Big 12 have something left
after the conference. I think they will but, it will be hard in this conference. Go Big 12.

[DingoBoy24]

Originally posted by DblT81:
Exactly!

I agree with all. If this bozo was right, Tech, North Carolina, Purdue and Notre Dame would never have won a NC.

Injuries and coaching are the great equalizers.

Plus I think there is more top talent now than 10 or even 5 years ago. Sure, there will continue to be those superstars. But which recruiting service would have ranked Jackie Stiles or Ruth Riley the best players 5 years ago?

I wish I could tell those great HS players that if they want their ego stroked, go to Tenn, Conn or Duke and the pundits will proclaim them the best. If they want to learn the game from the best coaches and play in front of more fans than anywhere else in the nation, play in the Big 12. Wherever they go, the opportunity to play for a National Champion will come from what they accomplish with their teammates and not who looks good on paper. There are many more opportunities to accomplish that goal than just those 2 teams.

Whew! Now that I have vented, I feel much better!


Ok, I don't know about the other teams that you listed there but as Purdue fan I know for sure we had several HS Blue Chippers in our 1999 Championship team. It's nice to see programs like Oklahoma doing well without them right now, it makes a nice story. .... Anyways, back to Purdue, I have seen several posts here comparing this yr's Oklahoma to 1999 Purdue, They are both great teams, May be one thing that strikes me most is the determination to win that I have seen in OU (I keep remembering those tough 3s that Ross made against purdue in Durham, Damn!) that's what championship teams are all about. The biggest difference tho is how highly ranked these players were out of HS...For Purdue, the 1999 team had (among others)

1)Stephanie White (ranked #1 by Blue Star, Chamiqua Holdsclaw was ranked 3rd)
2)Ukari Figgs (ranked 59th)
3)Katie Douglas (ranked 22nd)
4)Camille Cooper (ranked 77th)
5)Kelly Komara (Ranked 5th)

I don't know how highly most of the current OU players were ranked, but i looked around and I couldn't find any, that shows how good Coale is in Coaching, but I think in the long run she needs better recruiting to maintain that success. Good luck to all of you in the tourney

[DblT81]

Ahh, Dingo, resurrecting old topics, I see. How did you find this? Did you do a search for messages including "Purdue"? Oh, well. It is a good reminder to see what we discussed. My opinions haven't changed.


The Big 12 must get some teams to the final 4. Maybe that won't happen until there are more blue chip players on every Big 12 team.

Hey Dales! and Hill and Caufield, and Ross!..... some think you can't make it to San Antonio because you are not the blue bloods. Just a bunch of blue collars. http://hoopscoop.net/ubb/tongue.gif You gonna show 'em or what?

[This message has been edited by DblT81 (edited 02-28-2002).]

[Jennifer]

When teams like TN and UConn get all the top talent, you can run into chemistry and ego problems (TN this year?).

I think someone on the wbb list said that since the WNBA, you have more highly ranked players going to more schools rather than Uconn and TN, so they can get more PT right away and better prepare for the WNBA.

I don't think any of OU's upper classman were highly ranked or highly recruited, and look what they've done. Ditto for ISU. Rankings only mean so much. Coaching, hard work, willingness to learn and improve, and chemistry all figure in to making a great team.

[swok34]

but I think in the long run she needs better recruiting to maintain that success.......

nobody even knew who Oklahoma was or "where" it was, just ask Stacey Dales until the Year 2000. http://hoopscoop.net/ubb/smile.gif Recruits come when they see your program on TV, when they see your name in the Top 25,
when they at least know who you are......isn't that what happened to Purdue, or were Ukari Figgs and Stephanie McCarthy blue chippers?

[DingoBoy24]

Originally posted by swok34:
but I think in the long run she needs better recruiting to maintain that success.......

nobody even knew who Oklahoma was or "where" it was, just ask Stacey Dales until the Year 2000. http://hoopscoop.net/ubb/smile.gif Recruits come when they see your program on TV, when they see your name in the Top 25,
when they at least know who you are......isn't that what happened to Purdue, or were Ukari Figgs and Stephanie McCarthy blue chippers?

Agreed, being on TV all the time helps, Oklahoma is already "on TV" right now, but they have to take advantage of that. Dales and Co. are special and you don't get those kinds of underrated but great talent every year, they come once every 15 yrs. At some point Coale will have to fight the Tennessees and Uconns for the "big ones" if she wants OU's success to continue. Stephanie White was a Blue chipper (as I said rated higher higher than Holdsclaw), so was Komara and Douglas. Purdue didn't get these because of being on TV tho, we were just lucky to have a great Coach and recruiter in Lin Dunn in the early 90's. If she had stayed we could have won probably one more NCAA title. Can you imagine a team Coached by Dunn that has players like Stephanie White, Ukari Figgs, Michelle Van Gorp, Nicole Erickson Summer Erb, Katie Douglas and Camille Cooper for 4 yrs? That's scary! That shows how great of recruiter Lin Dunn was, she pretty much put Purdue where it's right now.

[cycofan]

I will now share one of my very favorite ISU basketball memories. After watching the Twister Sisters beat UCONN in Cincy, I ran out to the lobby to call my husband. There, in line to use the pay phone, were two UCONN fans....presumeably husband and wife. They were arguing because they could cancel the hotel, but the airline tickets to San Jose (Final 4 site that year) were non-refundable. http://hoopscoop.net/ubb/smile.gif

[Jennifer]

I pop over onto the Boneyard occasionally.
Seems like they would like to face ISU this year, for 'redemption' as one poster put it. I guess they are still feeling the hurt from 3 years ago!

[two cents]

That Iowa State victory over Connecticut was a surprise but not a total shock to people who had seen ISU play that year.

Not long ago, somebody asked in passing if UConn could have gone through this conference undefeated this year. I don't think it would be impossible, but it is very unlikely that they could. There are too many styles of play and players, too many teams that can exploit any weakness or an off night. Would they win the conference? Maybe, but OU would be in the hunt. If UConn is better than OU, it is just by a smidge. As for other years, UConn would win their share of titles, but they would have to settle for 2nd or 3rd some years too.

No team in this conference should be intimidated by any opponent, but the players have to believe it when the time comes. Playing a great team repeatedly over time helps to alleviate some of the psychological intimidation that can arise, particularly if players have had some success against the team in the past. Playing a great team once in a blue moon in the Big Dance is a different psychological hurdle. I was elated when the Cyclones accomplished that.

[dem]

Originally posted by Jennifer:
I pop over onto the Boneyard occasionally.
Seems like they would like to face ISU this year, for 'redemption' as one poster put it. I guess they are still feeling the hurt from 3 years ago!

That kind of hurt doesn't go away, I suspect.

I'll bet the Iowa State players would say, "Bring 'em on!"